Animation Source Forums

Hi I can sense the hate from where I write right now. Well if you don't want your favorite movie ruined don't read this. Well okay now your going to say Scar is guilty but let me pass this past you. Scar and Mufasa's deaths are the same thrown to animals. Well you might say Mufasa is not guilty but he did banish an entire race of animals and then just leave them there. That's got to create some hurt feelings. Well you might say Scar tried to kill his newphew but well I mean yes but why send the Hyeans after him when he could kill him himself I mean he's a cub at least subconsciously he must have not wanted him dead. Well he did try to kill him first but both times failed. I mean he obviously cared about him a little why go to all that effort for very bad plans. Plan number one how was he going to kill Mufasa he said he had less brute strength then him? Plan number 2 he didn't kill Simba I mean Simbas a cub he could have killed him then. Well you might say it's because of directing but come on you seem to blame Zira for stuff that didn't happen. Kopa's death. Well at least consider this. Also Mufasa and Simba both banish people they don't like because of some reason that we never see. Possibly just because they don't like them. I mean years of mistreatment make people bitter so the same probably went for the Hyeans,Scar and Zira. I mean in that last battle scene Scar still has command of the Hyeans and yet he doesn't say go for my newphew I mean he has enough of them to keep the lionesses in control and visa versa.

As Exile said in the other topic, you can't just kill a main protagonist to keep the story going. The failed murder attempts don't mean that Scar didn't want him to die.

And the main reason Scar used stampede and hyenas to murder Mufasa and Simba is that he didn't want to appear guilty. He meant to murder Mufasa and Simba in the stampede to make it appear as an unfortunate accident.
The reason he talked to Simba first was another good move. At this time Scar was still just a caring uncle upset abour rencent tragedy and he made Simba feel guilty about Mufasa's death so even if Simba survived (like he was meant to by the movie plot) he didn't want to come back to pridelands. This was the best option for Scar because:
- Simba didn't blame Scar for anyhting
- Simba blamed himself for Mufasa's death and was afraid of seeing his pride again
- Scar came back to the pride so he could tell the others about what Simba "did" if he ever wanted to came back and take over the pride.
and exactly when Simba came back, he was ashamed for himself and he didn't fight or didn't try to make excuses when he was exposed by "killing Mufasa".


and no, nobody blames Zira for Kopa's death.Kopa.Is.Not.Canon.

Okay you would be very surprised how many people do I mean if I look at her any different way people usually say oh but she killed Kopa. Well Okay but I'm just trying to look at the characters. In maybe a different way but a way that would explian their actions I mean if Scar was bullied as a child then okay I guess there's something there. So I'm going to ask you to just look at his actions as actions. He also allowed the Hyeans back in which why were they even banished in the first place? Also Simba banished people to almost certain doom because he didn't trust them. I mean Zira and the outsiders don't have much water or food and yet they've stayed there. So Simba in a sense did that to them. He also pushed his uncle of off Priderock. Simba also just ran away I mean this is not a series of educated kings no matter whose fault it his. We can also think that Simba banished the Hyeans. Do I think Scar was a good king no but I do think he could have been if Mufasa had taken advice and ruled with him. Basically good ideas not good at planning. I mean maybe if he had let the Hyeans in a little at a time things could be different. I cling to my thought that everyone there was guilty.

Scar did murder Mufasa without (apparent) provocation. On the other hand, he murdered Simba's dad, tried to murder Simba, and then beat Simba's mom. After all that, Scar had to start the fight because Simba was willing to let him leave.



I'm not surprised the hyena wanted to kill him. I'm surprised his own brother wanted to killed him. And according to canon (TLG) the hyena were overhunting the herds for fun, something substantiated by the condition of Scar's Pridelands in TLK.



He tried to have the hyena kill Simba in the Graveyard, not caring that Nala would be collateral damage and he tried to have the hyena kill him. If I hire a hitman and tell him to kill my brother, I'm still guilty of murder.

And I'd say they weren't bad plans. One suceeded and one nearly did. If Sarabi hadn't insisted Zazu go with the cubs, Simba would have been dead.



He wasn't trying to kill Mufasa in the Graveyard. He just wanted Simba out of the way so he could be next in line to the throne. Secondly, he tried to kill Simba. Failing at murder does not mean you didn't want someone dead.



Kopa isn't canon, and what does Zira have to do with anything? Out-of-universe, you can't kill the protaganist of the movie. In-universe, Scar simply didn't want Sarabi to smell Simba's blood on him, or was concerned someone was watching. If you don't want someone dead, you don't hire hitmen to kill them.



What do you mean, we never see? The hyena at least assisted in turning the Pridelands into a disaster zone without prey because there were so many of them. Zira clearly tried to attack Simba and would have killed Kiara. She was obsessively loyal to Scar. If someone wanted my family dead and their son to take my place, I wouldn't let them be near me either.



He doesn't say "go for my nephew"? He did it himself. He chased Simba off Pride Rock and would have thrown him off if Simba hadn't managed to get up. After Scar was in danger, the hyena attacked.

We never see Scar being mistreated. At worst, Mufasa is angry because Scar didn't go see Simba. Why? Because he's jealous and wants it to be all about him.

Zira tells Simba "these lands belong to Scar" indicating that she would overthrow him if she could. I can understand his wariness. Scar tried to kill Mufasa's cubs to take the throne. Why wouldn't Zira try the same?

My argument is not that Scar isn't guilty it's that Mufasa and Simba are guilty as well. Younclaimed Scar was guilty of many things. I agree. What I'm trying to say is that even though Scar is extremely guilty Simba and Mufasa are too.

You said the Hyenas had ruined the Pridelands and that's why Simba banished them but that wasn't true initially. When Zazu reports to Mufasa we learn that Hyenas are not allowed in the Pridelands. Naturally because we care for Simba and Mufasa we assume the Hyenas are bad and only want bad but we never actually find out what they were doing in the Pridelands. The Hyeans were banished before they destroyed the Pridelands.


Now let's skip ahead to where Simba finds out that his past pride is starving at first he doesn't seem to care enough to anything and Nala has to convince him to save the people he loves. That's pretty harsh.

Next the Hyeans destruction of the Pridelands. It seems to me that the sheer number of Hyeans in the Pridelands would make the prey run out not because they over hunted the prey for fun. Now as for for why Scar let them in the first place. Scar protests Simba's birth by not going. Why would he do this? Well maybe he was left out as a child and never really grew up. This would explain a lot: Scar let the Hyenas in because he thought they should be included and killed Mufasa as a childish act of jealousy and as a power grab.

As for Zira well she was banished before she tried to kill Simba and Kiara.

Look honestly I'm just a frustrated Lion King fan who feels there is often more to people than there seems. I just feel that there's more of gray area in the lion king than people see. So, yeah tell me what you think

I think the reason the hyena were likely banished was they they had overhunted the Pridelands, as they did during Scar's time. It isn't improbable, based on the context we have in the film, to think they had done this before. Mufasa was simply enforcing that.

In TLG, we see the hyena overhunt the herds, and then Kion throws them out, much like Mufasa did.



I disagree. Simba thought he had killed Mufasa. How could be think he could be king when he murdered his own father?

And what I think is harsh is Sarabi and her lionesses believing that Simba, as a cub 1/10th of Mufasa's size, could have killed him. Frankly if my family was that judgemental I'd not want to help them. They would have let Simba die if Scar hadn't confessed.



Of course I think there is a legitimate reason (in Scar's mind) that he killed his brother. Something had to happen there.

But it's easy to say 'Scar let too many hyena in' and harder to determine how many Mufasa should have let in. One or two? Why is he being mean to the rest, then? You must remember, Mufasa wasn't making them stay at the Graveyard. They could have left to find better lands any time they pleased.

We don't know why Zira was banished. Maybe it was just Simba was so tramatized that he impulse-banished her, but maybe she had tried to kill Kiara previously, explaining SImba's nervousness at her going off alone. Again, Simba didn't make Zira stay in the outlands. It's likely that she just wanted to be near "Scar's lands" and thus didn't try to find anywhere better.

I don't think only Scar is guilty based on the movie. I just think that it's easier to find reasons to banish Zira or the hyena when they could have moved on to other, nicer lands than to murder one's own brother. You have to remember, Zira wanted to attck Simba before she say the lionesses. Scar tried to kill is innocent nephew.

When Simba was given a chance to kill both Scar and Kovu, he turned it down.

Well the Lion Guard seems to take place after the original Lion King movie base on Kiara's exsistance. The Hyeans would be banished by Simba and would naturally become bitter. Hyeans like Janja might just think it's better to take now than to wait for peace. Now in response to you question how many Hyeans should Mufasa have let it I think he at least could have let Hyenas like Jasiri who show intreset in keeping balance in. There's no reason they should be lumped in with Janja.

Now you said that Simba's family was judgmental I agree. I think most lions in the pride are including Simba. This would explain the hasty banishments and general hate of Outlanders. Now this doesn't make them any less at fault for punishing innocent animals by banishing them.

You said that the Hyeans/Outlanders could have left at any point well yes they could have but I think animals like Jasiri cared about the Pridelands regardless of the Outlanders unfair treatment. I think this could come about after Scar's regin.

As for Zira attacking Kiara if take a look at that scene Zira leaps AFTER Simba leaps for Kovu. This suggests a more defensive thought than a evil plotting one. She does go on to make and evil plot but it seems like she was angry at that moment and she probably not have injured or killed Kiara at least not before she was banished. (If she only leaps after Simba does after her banishment than she probably wouldn't be murderess before hand In fact it's only after Nukas death that she truely becomes murderess.) I think Zira felt sympathy for Scar and thought what he was doing was right she probably just got swept up in emotion.


Tell me what you think

Jasiri and Janja are both teenagers, though. They probably weren't alive during the first movie. My personal theory on them is that they're siblings, cubs of Shenzi and Banzai, born after Scar's reign. Jasiri is very protective her of the her lands. She doesn't ask to enter the Pridelands, probably because she can take care of herself, implying that there is enough prey for her, at least.

Honestly, after murdering two King and terrorizing the lionesses, the hyena Clan had to know they'd be ousted.



I would maintain that the hyenas weren't innocent. Just because we don't see a reason doesn't mean that there wasn't a reason to banish them. Based on the context of TLG and TLK, I would suggest the reason was that they were overhunting the lands when they were allowed in. Shenzi certainly didn't seem hesitant to murder lion cubs when given the chance. Unless a hyena like Jasiri was in charge of the Clan, I agree that they shouldn't be allowed to harm the Pride and the herds.

Zira was obsessive about Scar. She stated she didn't recognize Simba as king. After Scar tried to murder a cub, it isn't a leap to assume that Zira would do the same thing. Simba was likely protecting himself and his family.

And as far as punishments go, both Mufasa and Simba are very lenient when giving them out. Mufasa would have been within his rights to kill Ed, Shenzi, and Banzai when they tried to kill Simba and Nala, but instead he let them go. Simba could have killed Scar, Kovu, or Zira, but he didn't. Neither Mufasa nor Simba was forcing the hyena/Zira to stay in the Graveyard/Outlands. They could have left at any time, to seek better lands. Mufasa also seemed to recognize the hyena's lands, as he told Simba not to cross their borders.

To your last point, then Jasiri - who seems 100% able to find her own food on her own lands - could have stayed. The hyena who complained about the Graveyard could have just left. It's fairly common in times of drought for RL hyena Clans.




Simba was placing himself in front of Kiara. The moment Zira realized it was him, her eyes widen and she prepared to jump on him, until she sees the lionesses he brought with him.

Zira is not only dangerous after Nuka's death. She asks Kovu what she's taught him, and he says "I must kill Simba" which is pretty dangerous. It's clear she's not only bitter about her exile, she asks "Who killed Scar" and Kovu states that it was Simba.

Frankly, I think thinking that Zira wouldn't kill Simba, Nala, or their cubs given half a chance is giving her too much credit. She's angry about Scar's death and she refuses to leave the outskirts of the Pridelands (outlands) when she could have very easily. She insists the lands belong to Scar, and thus, to Kovu. She is dangerous, and Simba did right by protecting his family.

If Zira learned Scar was dead and killed Simba in a rush of emotion, that's one thing. You don't get swept up in emotion and plot for YEARS to kill someone. That's premeditated murder.

It's funny how we share the theroy of Jasiri and Janja. Anyways, my personal theroy as to why Jasiri is good and not Janja is that Jasiri was originally the favored child. Now this would be just when they were new borns but never the less this would be enough to make hyenas stay away from Jasiri at least until Janja came into power. Janja probably fed off of hyenas fear to come into power. (Hyena females rank higher than males)

When Janja did come into power he probably made rash decisions and this caused the divid in the Outlands. Hyeans like the ones who invaded the Pridelands went to Janja's side and hyenas like Jasiri who probably spoke out against invading went to her side.

I know that not all Hyeans were innocent and many killed without a second thought but people aren't normally born pure good or evil so something probably made the Hyeans turn to Scar's side. Now that was probably a wish for revenge but what would they avenge? Well the Outlanders talk about the Pridelands like they belong to the the Outlanders. Now this could be from Scar's regin but that doesn't explain why the Hyenas stayed in the first place. I mean they're greedy but there are other herds that they could hunt outside of the Pridelands so why would they chose to remain in the Outlands? Well maybe because the Hyenas were the original rulers of the land.

Ancient Prodelanders probably came in and banished the Hyenas when they realized that there wasn't enough prey for them to share the lands. Now from the Pridelanders point of view they have expelled they're enemy nothing more but from the Hyenas point of view they have been cats cast off of their homeland. Now the Hyenas probably got tired of peace and decided to be more aggressive. However Hyenas like Jasiri struggle to maintain peace because they feel it's right.

Now you're probably asking yourself even if this is true how could Simba and Mufasa be guilty. The answer they haven't helped the Hyenas like Jasiri in anyway even though they know the danger peaceful Hyenas might be in. Instead they chose to punish Hyenas like Janja.

Tell me what you think. Also thanks for your input.