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Troll Berserker
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Post subject: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:07 am |
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Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 4:24 am Posts: 2352 Location: Trolland
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So I came across those photos while browsing Alaska's Digital Archives site and I thought it's worth sharing. Most of pictures featuring wolves are of course the ones with hunters and thropies, but there are some records of tamed wolves that were used in sled teams.  Probably the most known would be a wolf that get his own book - Wolf the Storm LeaderThe book is based on a true story of a wolf that became a leader of the mail team leading a trip from Nome to Washington D.C in early 1900's And here's an actual picture of Wolf and his team - http://vilda.alaska.edu/cdm/singleitem/ ... 548/rec/45Another image from early 1900's shows a sled team with mushers  What's most interesting about this photo is the description, explaining the dogs pictured as either tamed wolves or wolf mixes: Quote: The dogs are the center of interest. You can tell at a glance that they are of different kinds. The leader looks very much like a wolf. He belongs to a tribe called Malemute. That is, he is a tamed wolf of a northern kind. These wolves are captured by the Eskimos when they are little puppies and are trained. But even when tamed it would not be safe for a stranger to come too close to them. If you were to lay your hand on this dog's head, the chances are his fangs would be snapping at you a moment afterwards. Most of the Malemutes used are raised from the tamed wolves.
Another breed of dog you see here is called the "husky". This is a cross between a wolf and a hound. Still another is the "siwash" which is part wolf and part "husky". Then there is a fourth kind, the "half-breed". And the last photo is from 1933. It portraits a sled team with a purebreed wolf in it. 
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Charlie Fan_2
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Post subject: Re: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:30 am |
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Joined: Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:06 pm Posts: 107 Location: New Zealand
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Huh. Thanks for sharing thats very intresting. Actually reminds me a bit of White Fang.
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BaltoSeppala
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Post subject: Re: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:34 am |
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Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:44 pm Posts: 1947 Location: USA
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I definitely am not looking for an argument here, or to debase what has been posted, but I would like to refute this by presenting not only some general information from the time, but also some expert information by way of a quote, from the book noted below (oft-mentioned in serum run aficionado circles, and even on this site), and two YouTube videos, quoting experts in wolf and wolf-dog behavior (and dog behavior) which demonstrates just how poor a wolf-dog would be generally, as well as in its ability to accept training...again, generally and specifically as a sled dog. The video links are posted at the bottom of this post, and are definitely worth a view. The book noted is a good one, and the "true" story behind it, is interesting and moderately-well known, but fraught with misinformation (see below regarding what some mushers often said about their "wolf dogs"). However, it should be noted that almost all the dogs seen in those historical photographs are actually either Siberian Huskies or Alaskan Huskies...which, back then, and to varying degrees, often had a very wolfish appearance. First, I will note that the historical record demonstrates that many musher/breeders, back then (just like wolf-dog breeders do now) would lay the claim that their dogs were often "part wolf". Trying to either capture some essence, in their own minds, of the wild world, or to gain notoriety for they and their dogs, they would lay such claims. Which often, under closer examination and prying during the time period, proved false. It would also be a good selling point for them, to unaware and uninformed buyers, of what it would be like to "capture" something of the wild and keep it for oneself. Not uncommon today with people who believe wolfdogs make good pets (which, by the evidence below, they most definitely do not in perhaps but the very rarest of cases). Besides, many Alaskan Malamutes and Siberian Huskies of the time period tended to look wolfish. It wasn't until the American Kennel Club started accepting those two breeds, and establishing their harsh standards for conformation, that the dogs started to look generally less like wolves. I'd like to quote from the book The Cruelest Miles: The Heroic Story of Dogs and Men in a Race Against an Epidemic, by Gay and Laney Salisbury...considered one of the best books about the serum run history. And this post is intended to answer some earlier postings on either side of this on-going and often charged debate in here. This is from a footnote, pp. 141-143 (which reinforces the following statement on pg. 141: " [Wild Bill] Shannon once boasted that Blackie was the grandson of a timber wolf, which suggested a romantic combination of the wild and the tamed, with both elements working in perfect alliance. Jack London himself described such a breed, but the very notion was impractical. Wolves hunted, they did not pull. A few miners may once have succeeded in breeding a sled dog to a wolf in an attempt to produce an heir with tougher pads, more speed, and a keener sense of trail. But the wolf-dog crosses would not have been much use. Although there may have been a team or two in Alaska composed of wolf dogs, most experts agree that such hybrids were a myth. Wolf dogs tend to be intractable, aggressive, and territorial, and would have posed a danger in a team."): "The aggressiveness in wolf dogs does not necessarily come from the wolf heritage. In his book The Company of Wolves (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1995), Peter Steinhart writes that wolves tend to back off from fights and retreat from danger. Wolves will rarely bite a pack member. A pack would not survive constant aggression and therefore conflicts are usually resolved before they reach that stage.
"The myth of wolf dog sled teams continued into the 1900s in Alaska and was perhaps perpetuated by breeders and drivers trying to sell their sled dogs for top prices, particularly to beginners in awe of the idea. Wolves, however, are not stronger than sled dogs, nor do they have greater endurance. The biologist and sled dog enthusiast Raymond Coppinger writes in Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin, Behavior and Evolution (New York & London: Scribner, 2001) that breeding a sled dog to a wolf 'would be at least an evolutionary digression, if not a degradation in the behaviors of both. Wolves have not been selected to be sled dogs.' Contrary to popular myth, a sled dog team does not run like a pack of wolves. 'A pack,' writes Coppinger, 'is about chasing something. Sled dogs are running because other dogs are running.' It is the sole motivation. 'There is a rhythm to their run and they can hear that rhythm and they run to it,' Coppinger adds. 'When you stand on the back of a sled, you can feel it. It is powerful.'
"Coppinger discusses one zoologist and wolf expert who as an experiment tried to train hand-raised, nearly one-year-old wolves to pull a sled. Despite months of training, the wolves would not fully accept being harnessed together in such close quarters. They became territorial and when they got tired they simply lay down. They refused to take directional commands. And finally, when a robin landed among the wolves while at rest, they began to climb over each other, entangled their chains, and fought. The experiment was a failure. The zoologist ended up pulling the sled home. Basically, wolves are not suited to run on a team. being independent-minded, they ran at their own gait and were more concerned about defending their personal space than moving forward. These traits would compromise the effectiveness of the team and the safety of the driver."I think there are a few key concepts in the quotation above. To wit: - Wolf dog hybrids tend to inherit the worst traits, generally-speaking, of both wolves and dogs. The ingrained, instinctual behavior among wolves to constantly test the social pecking order and to maintain certain territorial independence...coupled with a very high prey drive (as well as occasional skittishness in unfamiliar situations); and of dogs, the occasional appearance of aggressive and skittish behaviors, and sometimes fear-aggression. From what I have heard and read, wolf dog hybrids often show those qualities...and when I have seen wolf dog breeders and enthusiasts attend community dog events, they tend to keep the wolf dogs caged and away not only from dogs, but their owners as well (and I'm not talking dog crates...I'm talking portable chain-link fence enclosures with thick bars as support structuring). The breeders and enthusiasts warn the curious and empathetic observers not to get too close, especially if they have a dog on leash...even though, on their own and under control of the owner, they "are sweet, gentle animals". Contradiction much? I find that very telling (and these are breeders who would swear up and down that they are reputable, reliable and care a great deal, using humane and honorable breeding and care methods). Granted, I HAVE witnessed one or two exceptions. Even a YOUNG wolf dog in a group play situation with several medium to large dogs in which he was reserved but peaceable and occasionally playful. But he was an isolated case. Most of what I have seen would tend to support what is quoted above.
- It's not wolves themselves that are the problem. Nor dogs. It's the combining of the two which often (though perhaps not always) creates problems. And wolf dog breeders and enthusiasts are usually incapable of acknowledging that fact. There is only ever a sunny side and, to them, the "horrid prejudices and misunderstandings" of the public and the press.
- Balto movie fans, most especially the wolfaboos and wolf dog enthusiasts among them, would certainly find the information quoted above to be upsetting, and perhaps unbelievable...even though it is supported by expert references.
Two video links, from YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij09gDOx8ckhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfpQVjYFcSE
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Troll Berserker
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Post subject: Re: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 8:05 am |
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Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 4:24 am Posts: 2352 Location: Trolland
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I'm not going to argue if wolfes/wolfdogs make good pets or working animals. The fact that America has plenty of sanctuaries for abandoned pet wolves and wolfdogs speaks for itself.
I was just trying to post some interesting historical records of actual working wolves/wolfdogs (or at least dogs assumed to be ones) in Alaska around the time Balto movies took palce. I'm not suprised there are only a few of these, because seriously, wolves are not good for sleds, but I think the last photo definitely shows a wolf or at least a wolfdog, judging by its size and appearance. So a fancharacter who's a wolf working in a sled is not completely impossible, but very, very unlikely to happen.
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BaltoSeppala
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Post subject: Re: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 11:22 am |
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Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:44 pm Posts: 1947 Location: USA
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Troll Berserker wrote: I'm not going to argue if wolfes/wolfdogs make good pets or working animals. The fact that America has plenty of sanctuaries for abandoned pet wolves and wolfdogs speaks for itself.
I was just trying to post some interesting historical records of actual working wolves/wolfdogs (or at least dogs assumed to be ones) in Alaska around the time Balto movies took palce. I'm not suprised there are only a few of these, because seriously, wolves are not good for sleds, but I think the last photo definitely shows a wolf or at least a wolfdog, judging by its size and appearance. So a fancharacter who's a wolf working in a sled is not completely impossible, but very, very unlikely to happen. First, was simply offering a discussion point. Not, as I said, an attempt to cause any difficulties. The information is relevant. And refutes the claim, by the author, that it is based upon a true story. Not that it wasn't. I merely maintain that it refutes what was (and is) most often seen in wolf dogs which people have attempted to use in working situations (and yes, in pet situations as well...however, those videos were posted to reinforce the controversial and very dangerous nature of wolfdogs in general). Nor was I attempting to nullify or deride what you said. It is at least possible that the dog, whom this story was based upon, really was a wolfdog and that it worked out somehow. I have read of the story, and related ones. Often, they are taken by historians and mushers with a grain of salt. Second, I noted that almost all the dogs in the historical photos presented (which was a nice effort to do so) were not wolfish in appearance, though it is entirely possible the musher described them that way to the photographer, in order to make the team seem more interesting, or perhaps the photographer laid that claim himself. As a matter of fact, most people who are either professional or amateur historians and historical researchers tend to try to refer to multiple sources in order to verify facts. I'm not implying anything about you here. You presented some information for the benefit of the forum, and that's great. But were I to look at the caption that the Alaska Digital Archives says the photographer left on the back of the photo(s), I would start digging deeper for any related material. Of course, that is an interest of mine, and I enjoy devoting time to that. You probably do not.
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scotland.
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Post subject: Re: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:13 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:12 pm Posts: 1298
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I think it's quite interesting that wolves could be used for sled teams, I mean, why not? Huskies are decedent from wolves (Just like every other breed of dog). I, personally, wouldn't use a wolf for a sled team but more for a guard dog or pet.
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BaltoSeppala
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Post subject: Re: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 7:11 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:44 pm Posts: 1947 Location: USA
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Cheyanne wrote: I think it's quite interesting that wolves could be used for sled teams, I mean, why not? Huskies are decedent from wolves (Just like every other breed of dog). I, personally, wouldn't use a wolf for a sled team but more for a guard dog or pet. In a fictional world, sure...it could be interesting. In the real world, the stuff I quoted demonstrates why it just couldn't (and most often didn't) work. Huskies are descended, like all domestic dogs, from an extinct Asian subspecies of wolf (and probably, in a larger sense, given the randomness by which wild canids probably interacted with ancient humans, some other wolf subspecies as well). And separated from wild wolves by many thousands of years. Their behavior, as the information I quoted clearly demonstrates, couldn't possibly be more divergent. As to the question of wolf dog hybrids as pets...er, did you watch the videos I linked? Not only can they make terrible, unpredictable and dangerous pets, but unreliable guardians (and excessively dangerous there as well).
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Mighty
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Post subject: Re: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:20 pm |
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Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:22 pm Posts: 4920 Location: Michigan
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I have to agree, wolves are not meant to be kept as pets. Anyone who thinks or wants one as a pet is ignorant (I also don't think it's fair for the animal). You can't just pick up a hybrid puppy and expect it to act like a normal dog. The only people who should be handling these dogs are people who handle and understand wolves. I would also like to toss in another video about hybrids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO2LmjksqM0
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scotland.
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Post subject: Re: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:41 pm |
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Mightybalto1925 wrote: I have to agree, wolves are not meant to be kept as pets. Anyone who thinks or wants one as a pet is ignorant (I also don't think it's fair for the animal). You can't just pick up a hybrid puppy and expect it to act like a normal dog. The only people who should be handling these dogs are people who handle and understand wolves. I would also like to toss in another video about hybrids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO2LmjksqM0So I'm ignorant? How kind of you to say that.. I'm so glad you think of me and many others that way because we would like to have a wolf as a possible pet. Granted, they are dangerous, but if taken care of and proper training as a pup they could turn out to be a nice companion.
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Mighty
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Post subject: Re: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 9:52 pm |
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Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:22 pm Posts: 4920 Location: Michigan
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Cheyanne wrote: So I'm ignorant? How kind of you to say that.. I'm so glad you think of me and many others that way because we would like to have a wolf as a possible pet. Granted, they are dangerous, but if taken care of and proper training as a pup they could turn out to be a nice companion. I wasn't directing that to you personally, so cool your jets. But there are many people out there who don't know anything about wolves and dogs, yet they own them. They don't realize what they're getting themselves into since they didn't bother to do any research. Proper training doesn't remove the threat of a hybrid being dangerous. Wolves are beautiful, yes, but they don't make good pets.
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Last edited by Mighty on Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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scotland.
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Post subject: Re: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 10:01 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jun 08, 2013 6:12 pm Posts: 1298
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Mightybalto1925 wrote: Cheyanne wrote: So I'm ignorant? How kind of you to say that.. I'm so glad you think of me and many others that way because we would like to have a wolf as a possible pet. Granted, they are dangerous, but if taken care of and proper training as a pup they could turn out to be a nice companion. I wasn't directing that to you personally, so cool your jets. But there are many people out there who don't know anything about wolves and dogs, yet they own them. They don't realize what they're getting themselves into since they didn't bother to do any research. Proper training doesn't remove the threat of a hybrid being dangerous. Wolves are beautiful, yes, but they don't make good pets. And that's why I said "and many others." I'm not talking hybrids, I'm talking pure bred wolf. Quote: "But there are many people out there who don't know anything about wolves and dogs, yet they own them." Yes, but I, however are not one of those and I still want one for a companion. I'm not arguing with you about the fact that they are dangerous, but having one for me wouldn't be a problem.
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BaltoSeppala
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Post subject: Re: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:48 am |
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Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:44 pm Posts: 1947 Location: USA
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Cheyanne wrote: Yes, but I, however are not one of those and I still want one for a companion. I'm not arguing with you about the fact that they are dangerous, but having one for me wouldn't be a problem. I'm gonna stay out of this particular thing between you and Mighty, but I will say this: if you ever plan to risk owning a wolf (if that's even legal where you live...because in many places it is not, or only is with strict conditions) or wolfdog, just make sure you never stumble within eyesight of it, or appear to be very sick. And don't let a friend bring over any of their dogs to interact with it. That's all I'll say. But back to your earlier comment (your first to me)? I have no problem with the fictional aspect. As we have seen, that works. And could make for interesting fan fiction or fan art. Even this old story that Troll linked above is very interesting, and the story it is based upon may well have a ring of truth to it. But it would be such a rare extreme as to be practically unique. But it's always nice to see somebody posting something else historical...at least for the interest factor.
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nani
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Post subject: Re: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:41 pm |
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I think the only point being made in the original article is that is was possible for a wolf or wolf dog to be part of a sled team. Whether that was a good idea or not is another story. As for the pet aspect, it's fine to wish you had a pet wolf. You could pretend that it was loyal and not aggressive or anything, but to be honest, it would probably end in disaster. It's fine to fantasize about it (when I was little I used to pretend I had a pet lion), but actually owning one could be dangerous, for a wolf is not a domesticated dog that's man's best friend, but a wild animal. For example, just because cats are domesticated does not mean owning a leopard or tiger would be a good idea.
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BaltoSeppala
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Post subject: Re: Sled wolves and wolfdogs in Alaska Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 6:14 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 5:44 pm Posts: 1947 Location: USA
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nani wrote: I think the only point being made in the original article is that is was possible for a wolf or wolf dog to be part of a sled team. Whether that was a good idea or not is another story. Well certainly that was the point, and - at least in terms of fiction or art, it's a neat idea. But as the information I provided does show, in reality it's actually a horrible idea. And it wasn't intended to debase what the original poster showed us. Rather, it was just to show what the prevailing evidence and information shows, and that claims of wolfdogs working on sled teams were often the result of unsubstantiated boasts even during (as well as before and after) Balto's time (the real one). That's the only point I was trying to make. As to the story itself, it's a great one. Based upon some real event, in spite of what the author of the book claimed? That's a matter for historical debate...and is a matter of some conjecture.
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