Animation Source Forums

Okay...so I have been noticing an increasing trend lately. And while this may seem rather outlandish an accusation by some people, most of you know darned well better than to presume stuff like this never happens on the internet (ESPECIALLY on Animation Source, and MOST especially on BALTO SOURCE).


I apologize if this seems rather self-absorbed but, given how the drama and pettiness play out on this site as well, it is unavoidable for it to appear that way. Sorry - it's gonna be a bit wordy. But most good rants have to be...it's kind of a given.


So there was this somewhat creepy animated gif (link to it, while it is still up, is below) that someone posted recently as a fan image submission on Balto Source. The person who posted it soon admitted openly that it was a bit creepy, and has adopted a very level-headed and mature posture about it, and about critiques of it. So I see no reason to keep that information a secret (as I have communicated with her privately, and she seems pretty devil-may-care about the whole thing, and gave me an okay to post this). I and a few others made a variety of comments on it, and a couple spoke to our opinions of the submission being rather creepy.


I was expecting the VERY COMMON type of AS member response to this; i.e. something melodramatic, hypersensitive, argumentative, vitriolic and full of bawwwing and butthurt. And then, naturally, the accompanying snide remarks from what you all like to call the "white knights", who have to throw their punitive two cents in because you actually DARED to make a critical comment! In fact, I was so sure I was going to be getting those sorts of responses (because that is routinely what I DO get to my critical opinions) that I actually posted a disclaimer on my first comment there -- and a screen shot of the relevant comments are included below.


What I got, to my very great surprise, was something completely UNLIKE the very common type of AS member response to critical opinion. One of calm, poise, and intelligence. And even a sort of self-deprecation. THAT was so unexpected, I had to follow up to make note of it, and of my appreciation of it (the second screen shot below).


Within several hours of my posting my follow-up comment, which you'll see below because I DID make certain to screencap it (and the individual's reaction), the submission disappeared from the front page of Balto Source. I know why it did. Do I have any hard evidence? Nope. But it is part of a larger problem here, concurrent with the on-going drama between myself and not only two moderators here, but also a wanna-be staffer (and each of their friends). That being that, whenever ANYONE posts in agreement with me on a critical opinion of mine, especially (and shockingly) when it is the owner of the submission themselves, steps are quickly taken to hide that. Or even when fan artists have made very wonderful art or renders of my fan characters. They are taken off the front page very quickly. The latter part I JUST don't get. The former? Unless any comment chain between myself and another person is totally innocent, happy-happy, and devoid of any FORM of criticism, it's subject to this issue.


Why is this, you may ask? We're talking, here, about them trying to paint, and maintain, a very one-sided and VERY inaccurate portrait of me. That of a person who is constantly critical, rude, harsh and unkind...one who deserves not only to be banned, but ideally to be perma-banned. Because I'm "driving people away" with my "rudeness". And this removal of such things from the front page, or careful cover-up of other stuff related to my characters, etc., are key examples.


Now...I knoooooooooooooow what the excuses would be. One of three:



1. Fan submissions stay up on the front page only one day (which we've all seen direct evidence of to the contrary);

2. Fan submissions on the front page, which don't receive active commenting, generally disappear from the front page quickly, and automatically...mods have nothing to do with that (oh really? Interesting. The item in question in this topic received several comments just today. But it mysteriously disappeared from the front page. Today. Huh. Isn't that odd?)



My point in all of this? I'm getting SICK TO DEATH of the same dirty little games which have been played on this site for years...some of which have been constantly directed at me (sometimes by design, sometimes by circumstance). Does the webmaster do anything to prevent it? Does he address concerns made by a frustrated member? Are you kidding me?? Ol' Frenchie seems to believe I'M the problem. Solely. Would ol' webmaster guy seek to rein in his moderators who ARE engaged in excesses beyond the obvious limits of their authority? Do you want to see me laugh ruefully? But he'll sure as hell quickly can a GOOD moderator who ran afoul of the aforementioned wanna-be staffer, his special guy.


Do the other mods do anything about it? One or two have bravely tried. And they quickly become ostracized by those mods who engage in this dirty behavior, and end up in constant arguments and battles of will with them. Disgusting, that they are subjected to that for merely trying to correct egregious miscarriages of fairness and justice.


The result? Business as usual. "JC is a rude, abrasive, critical and unreasonable person who has been driving members away with his comments and by taking things way too seriously. Most people don't like him very much, and some people just hate him. And isn't it obvious why that is?"





Screen shots of the comments in question (first image is the earlier comments):







The fan submission in question: /balto/en/view_fanimage/Wolfy_Mutt_I_Love_You_All/209.html&numart=12467&display=18

I'll admit I don't know anything about that particular situation, but I've been under the impression that stuff on the front page of Balto Source IS only there for a day. (Hence the headline: "What's New Today? [Date]") And since the site runs off French time, it would seem like it rotates to the new date too early for people in America or other non-European countries. I've been glancing at the front page several times over the past few years and I cannot recall a time off the top of my head where a work didn't stay for more than a day; if it was good, it got selection of the week, but that's it.

The only other way an item can be taken off the front page is if it gets deactivated, and since everyone can still see that piece, it's pretty obvious it wasn't deactivated.

Again, I know nothing about this, but I'm still saying it's just a matter of it getting rotated off the front page because the "day" was up in France. I know you said that's not the case, but I'm just sharing my observation; nothing that I can remember has stayed on the front page for more than a day, and that should also include this.

These negative views are very much wrong, and the people who enforce that to be a true fact is a sick human being.

Kudos to the those of you who can look past that.

So because something disappeared off the front page it's all of a sudden a HUGE DEAL, two moderators faults and some huge plot to your downfall?

Wellllll, the moderators on this site hardly have a good track record of being honest and actually doing things for the sake of other members rather than resorting to favouritism and using their powers to get payback on personal issues with members. Just sayin'.

Regardless of how JC behaves to some people, the mods are the ones who have to act maturely and indiscriminately about these things and that does not mean throwing the banhammer or censoring stuff they do not like. I'm referring to past incidents so please note that I'm not referring to this issue in the latter as it is pure speculation but the mods have had a history of censoring things so ANYTHING trivial is possible.

It's like a child who's being punished for lying, it's hard to shake that label off once you have it and the mod team here have done nothing to shake off that label for me. Sorry, but that's the truth.

Actually, whilst we're on the subject, why is it acceptable for the mods to delete posts and such? If the aim is to make the site look 'clean' and 'friendly' then, oh brother, are you lot naive. xDD

Ordinarily I'd think something like this, and agree with you, however it's become painfully apparent most of this is true.
It may be the case that in THIS instance the submission just went off the front page on it's own, but I have watched COUNTLESS times when 2 mods have blatantly acted childish, immature and highly unprofessional by;

- Deleting comments on submissions with no reason. Usually of JC's, sometimes of Mighty's, often times other people too just to hide the fact that comments were deleted. The deleted comments are more often than not a criticism of a submission, but the vast majority have not been rude or inflammatory. I cannot fathom a reason why they should have been deleted.

- Arguing with people, not always JC & Mighty but again they seem to pick on them, and then hiding as much as possible or twisting events so it appears they were not the ones arguing.

- Deleting forum topics they do not agree with - this one was actually one of my own topics. A praise topic made praising Blakavr for not rolling over to this kind of behaviour, which was locked (and I was okay with that, let me add, I wasn't angry it was locked by Wingrunner) and after that it was deleted so it could not even be seen by one of these same 2 mods (not Wingrunner).

- Instigating and flame baiting fights in the shoutbox and insulting members because they personally did not like what was being said. I was present for one glaring example of this and while the discussion between two/three members wasn't sunshine and roses, they were not being exceedingly rude or nasty about what they were saying and until one of these same 2 mods came in throwing their weight around discussion was calm and would have moved on quietly without a fight. Rather than diffusing the situation they STARTED the fight, and made no attempt to stop during it, it took a few other members who were not mods coming in and changing the subject to stop it. (Let me add, the original conversation was not between JC or Mighty, they weren't even present when this started and only appearing during it having seen what was going on.)

Is this how moderating on AS should be?
Is it because it's "only a kid's site" that the staff here should not act with professionalism and tact?
Is it because Steet is tired of the nonsense the mods he hired to keep the place in check should do whatever they feel like and act this way?
Were it any other site I have visited that's a similar size to AS that had mods acting this way they'd have been removed from their mod positions ages ago, because people here are friends with these mods should it mean they should be allowed to do this?
If it were people you personally were not a fan of doing this, would you be of the opinion they should remain mods too or would you want them de-modded?
This isn't hear-say or made up - this happens. I have seen it happen and there is evidence of it happening.
I've personally PMed Steet with my concerns, but I've not yet got a reply, however I don't see why it should be allowed simply because Steet hasn't said so. It's common sense and the mods should not need Steet to hold their hand and tell them what to do.

People are forever complaining AS isn't what it used to be and that there's too much drama, want to know what is the most vast difference between new AS and old BS? The staff 4+ years ago knew what they were doing. There was none of this kind of stupidity and they worked. The site can't work properly with mods who flip-flop and pick favourites and when a current mod DOES try and fix the system the mods who like it this way kick up a stink and throw a tantrum.

I'm not gonna entertain what are obviously provocative questions, Kaizer. When there is obvious evidence to back up statements like the ones I made, then there is merit to pointing it out, and it is not empty bawwing. UK provided the RATIONAL answer (and backed it up with direct personal experiences) to that in her post, thus:







Exactly. And while I inferred that this might indeed have been the case, I don't believe for one second that it was. There's just too much bad blood, too much insipid history on this site, to draw any other conclusion. The evidence of repeated provocation and prejudicial behavior is there. There have been screen caps, there have been conversational snippets, there have been all manner of things which make it all very evident. And shameful.




I suppose the other point I am making in this topic is why is it so difficult for other AS members to react with the maturity and poise that Wolfy Mutt did in that one submission?

Again, there would be a HELL of a lot less drama if that were the case.

I don't think the mods have any control over what's on the front page and what isn't, do they? If they do, correct me now, but as far as I'm aware (and I was a mod for a LONG time, on multiple Sources), the front page is automatic: what's been activated that day.

Perhaps. But a coded system does not make selective, conscious choices about what to take down and what to keep up. It can only do what it is coded to do. And those are usually very simple commands based upon certain set parameters.

Therefore, I still call "shenanigans".

I still have yet to see where you're going at, the event is done. The image wasn't deactivated and your comments are still there, so why exactly are you still going on about this? If the image was removed, I'd see a reason to your claim but for something that's still there it's pointless, so I see no reason why you should be complaining about the image in question.

If you haven't got the point from what UK backed me up on, then you never will. And since you have a slanted take on this anyway, convincing you particularly is really not something I am interested in investing time in. How about that for a reason?

Let me just note here - those same issues I mentioned in my above post are happening again.
Some posts by JC on a submission, which were criticism but not outwardly flaming or aggressive - yet again deleted for no rhyme or reason.

JC's said he doesn't KNOW that these mods had anything to do with the .gif submission moving, he simply suspected it.
Given how frequent behaviour like that is between these specific mods, I'd hardly be surprised that if they could remove it from there they would.

For a really long time I always tried my best to stay out of the drama of this site, but lately I've been trying to become more involved as an older member of this site. What I have been seeing is truely disturbing, and this case here is only one of many that I have seen in only the last couple of months.

Even if it wasn't the Mods who removed this image from the front page, that really isn't the point. The real problem here is that AS has a very corrupted staff with a webmaster "leader" who is not around to help. There isn't much that any of us can do other than bring this out in the open because we don't have the power to de-mod those members who are abusing their power. I think that there should be a lot more topics like this one, bringing into the light what is going on behind the scenes.

Jersey, I truely feel sorry for you sometimes. I mean, I don't know you well and I haven't known you for long, but I have never ever EVER seen you be mean or cruel to any member for any reason. Now, I've seen plenty of members get extremely mad and upset at you, mostly because you out-smart them and prove your opinoin "right" while they can only say "But this is what I think, and I can have an opinoin, so you're wrong.... There."

I'd just like to say that after being a member for over four years, most of the time I stayed here, on the forums, and didn't worry about the site. Why? Because everything was running smoothly. Now I am constantly browsing through comments and characters and fanart, witnessing for myself the constructive critism before it gets deleted. I had heard things were bad, now I'm seeing it for myself. I can't believe what AS has come to...

That's very sweet of you, Black Rose...and very understanding! You are like a few teens and young adults who actually have the wisdom and intelligence, and certainly the maturity, to see what my opinions and critiques are really about! If only more could see that, instead of jumping to conclusions (and abusing positions of site stewardship out of petty revenge motivations...FACT).

I had something similar from Beachboy recently on one of his fan creations. He was very kind and decent to me, and even if it sounds like I'm "tooting my own horn" here, I kind of HAVE to revel in the few instances where some teen or young adult actually treats my posts with decency rather than pettiness, overreaction and/or utter stupidity. It's just that unusual that it is certainly a cause for me to celebrate!

I mean, look (what a wonderful statement by Beachboy. And he's not even a native English speaker. HE certainly seemed to understand what I have been doing. Strange that so many native English-speaking teens and young adults let it do a flyby right on past them):




A bit before that, there was a discussion in the BS shoutbox one day where a newer member was reacting a bit presumptuously and typically defensively to another member's critique (wasn't me) of one of her submissions. I, who have actually had a good interpersonal online interaction with this new member so far, TRIED to explain to her why she was being presumptuous (it eventually did seem to have a positive effect, but it took an exasperating bit of time, and three people including myself, to get it to register...)





The source of the misery? When moderators think they have some inalienable right to delete my comments, or do other surreptitious and sneaky activities, simply because they don't happen to like me very much, and may have either a chip on their shoulder, or some personal, unspoken axe to grind and cannot get over it and move on (like they ever so often like to conceitedly insist others do when faced with difficulties).

Am I making a "Federal case" out of this? Am I dwelling on it or being too self-absorbed or pompous or overreactive? Some might think so (and I know you're not suggesting that, Black Rose). But those who know about this stuff (and that is an increasing number precisely because I've not kept quiet about it) know otherwise. I'm just so UNBELIEVABLY sick of the callous disregard for the actual rules, and any degree of standards among certain members of the staff, that I intend to make sure everyone is keenly aware of what has upset me so badly. And that seems to be working. Especially since the webmaster obviously doesn't care about the fact that his own staff runs roughshod over the members of his site, and creates their own rules as they see fit...AND engages in petty punitive and revenge tactics whenever it suits them. I cannot articulate in words how bitterly angry these idiots have made me, and how, if they keep pushing, they will sooner or later push too far...and someone, either me or someone else, will REALLY start pushing back.

BANG! You really hit the nail on the head with that shoutbox comment JC.

Some people may think that critiscm is only for professional artists, and that this site is just for kids to have fun posting art and not have it be judged errr...what?

I may be explaining that all wrong, but artists are artists, no matter what skill level. And every artist needs something to drive off of, or they won't get anywhere. If every comment were nice and friendly, the artist will think that their art is perfect the way it is and they'll never improve, which is I guess okay, but it's better to BE better, you know? No critique is meant to hurt. It's not. Just like JC doesn't want to hurt anybody. He's not some monster who just goes around looking for someone to destroy. In fact, I think his comments are getting less blunt and more explainatory, which can definitely simmer down the hurt that the young artists feel from his comments.

Lately, I haven't seen any huge explosions from the children anyway, I think they're just getting used to him. So why are his comments still being deleted if it's not as big of a problem anymore?

Correct me if I'm wrong that THAT part of the problem had not simmered down.